Digital audio of a recorded interview with Margaret Fox (Margaret James), who worked as a programmer for LEO Computers.

Interviewer: John Daines
Date of interview: 19 July 2017
Length of recording: 27m58s
Format: original .mp3 recording 22.44MB), transferred to .mov video for presentation on YouTube (106.11MB)
Copyright in recording content: Margaret Fox and LEO Computers Society

Transcript editor: Hilary Caminer

Abstract: Margaret Fox (Margaret James) worked as a programmer for LEO Computers, working mostly on payroll jobs for customers such as CAV, Ford, Glyn Mills etc. Later she worked a series of homebased programming jobs.

Transcript of interview:
[copied from M: Leo Pictures and AudioAUDIOLEO Oral Histories TranscriptsMargaret Fox edited P2]

Transcript :

LEO COMPUTERS LIMITED - Oral History Project
Interview with Margaret Fox by John Daines
[John Daines] It's the 19th of July 2017 and I am John Daines. I am interviewing Margaret Fox to give us the story of her involvement with LEO Computers from the earliest days. Good morning Margaret. We are recording this interview as part of the LEO Computer Society Oral History Project. The audio version and the transcript will be lodged at a central archive and made available for researchers and members of the public. Perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself?
[Margaret Fox] I'm Margaret Fox. I was Margaret James when I worked for LEO but I got married while I was there. Going back to the start I was born before World War II in Hanwell, a London suburb, but when the war started was evacuated briefly, to Brickhill with my brother. I was too young to go to school, but he did attend school while we were there. My father worked for Napier’s, building aeroplanes, so he stayed there because it was for the war effort. I always thought he built Spitfires but apparently that was wrong, it was one of the others, Lancaster Bombers possibly. So we went back to London and when in 1941 we returned the windows all rattled and
there'd been a bomb in our road that had demolished a couple of houses which remained as a bomb site, I suppose, all through the war. We went back, father had built an Anderson shelter and I do remember being carried down in my siren suit in the middle of the night, going out into the shelter. He was one of these fire-fighters in the evenings. (Note: a small prefabricated air-raid shelter,promoted by Home Secretary Anderson and suitable for siting in a back garden). I started school at the local primary, which was not the same my brother’s because at that time they decided you had to go to the nearest school and my brother had gone a bit further afield, not very much further. We always walked anyway because nobody had cars in those days. I missed an awful lot of schooling at first because my brother would get some infectious disease and I had have to be off school when he got it, and stay away until I got infected at the end of the incubation period. As a result I had missed loads of education. I can remember not being able to read and the teacher thinking it was quite dreadful that I couldn't read, but it wasn't surprising. At one time I had mumps and, this was in the doodlebug times, and a doodlebug had hit a shop, I think it was calledAbernathy’s, and we could actually see from our house all the smoke going up. (NOTE: Doodlebugs
were the German VI Flying Bombs). It was quite a dodgy time. We used to have to take our gas mask to school of course, and at school we just sat on the stairs if the sirens went, which never really seemed all that safe. But, apparently, in some buildings that would be the only bit that would be left. I spent all my days at that school. I was always keen on athletics, and towards the end we had a student teacher who said I should do it but at that I never did. After passing the Eleven Plus I went to Notting Hill and Ealing High School. (Note:Children took the 11 plus examination on leaving primary school. The minority who passed were permitted to attend Grammar schools. The majority who were deemed to have ‘failed’ went to Secondary Modern schools finishing schooling at age 16) My mother was always pushing, I think she pushed me a lot actually when I look back on it, to get me up to a posh school. At that time it was a day school and took a few scholarship pupils, but also had a lot who paid. But I think since, when schools went comprehensive, they've gone completely independent now, and I visited there and it's got swimming pools and who knows what the amount of money that they must have spent since they went independent, it's quite appalling I think. From school I went to Westfield College, London University, which was,
at the time, purely a women’s college, to study maths. And I must admit I was very bewildered about it because a lot of people had spent three years in a sixth form before they went there. I had only spent two and I found the subject quite bewildering, but I enjoyed the sport and I did manage to get a degree. After that, most of my friends, I think, were going into teaching but I knew I didn't want to teach at that time. I didn't know anything about computers but decided I'd give it a go. And I had one interview, I think, before LEO. At that time the amount of time spent between University and getting a job was ridiculously short - it was so easy to get jobs at that time.
[John Daines] What prompted you to think of computers?
[Margaret Fox] It must have just been suggested to me. Presumably we had a career’s person. I mean there weren't that many openings for women that wanted to do something other than teaching. And it must have been suggested. The first one I went to was more scientific, I don't remember who it was. But then came LEO, rather, like Barry. [Note: Barry Fox, Margaret’s husband worked initially as a programmer with LEO from 1959 and
continued a career specialising in computer languages. He and Margaret met working for LEO and married, living first in Hayes before moving North . There is a full oral history interview with Barry.] I had an interview with David Caminer. And, yes he asked me about sporting things, he was always keen on that. I played squash, table tennis and tennis, and he did say ‘was I champion of any of them’? Yes, all three, but that was a fluke. I mean two of them I was good at but tennis, I don't know, I never played very much tennis because I preferred the singles to doubles. So that's how I got the job quite frankly. And I was offered a lot less money than Barry, because I was a woman. Oh one of the things Caminer asked me was ‘was I likely to get married in the near future’? Which I
thought was a bit of a liberty even at that time, though as not as much as today - because I think you're not allowed to do that now.
[John Daines] No. No. You're not supposed to.
[Margaret Fox] So, yes I did this test which was virtually a coding thing. I mean they gave the coding sheets and that's virtually what it was, to see if your mind worked the right way I suppose. Then I went on this course. I don't know how long it was. It was, of course, before I met Barry. I remember two people on that course. One was John Aris and the other one was somebody called Fred Bishop who came from CAV. (NOTE: CAV was a large company that made diesel injection equipment and became part of the Lucas Group. They were one of the earliest LEO I users with technical calculations for the design of fuel systems. Their weekly payroll was run initially on the II/5 bureau. They then bought LEO III/5 which was installed in Acton with a large picture window that enabled the public to view operations). At that time the CAV were wondering whether to buy IBM or LEO, and so Fred was full of questions and always going on about ‘IBM do this, that and the other’. So, he and John Aris, I think, were
about the only people that actually knew anything about anything and would ask questions. Everybody else was very quiet and didn't do anything much . Mary Blood was my mentor, I think, at that time, and I worked for her on Ford payroll. It was the first job that I did. And from that I did the Glyn Mills payroll. I always seemed to do payroll, though I don't think it was so although I can only remember four things that I did and one of the first one was the Ford payroll. 
[John Daines] That was Ford’s at Dagenham?
[Margaret Fox] Yes. And that was all done from Cadby Hall. Then the Glyn Mills payrolls. [Note: Glyn Mills Bank processed the pay for Army and RAF Officers, using the LEO Bureau service for the computing element. It was an early user of Credit Transfers rather than cheques for payment]. We moved to Minerva Road to try things out but we went on to H artree House once LEO IIL was installed there. We heard that the computer had to be taken through the window because they couldn't get it up to the second floor.
[John Daines] It was.
[Margaret Fox] It was a wonder it was safe enough for it up there? (Note: A good question. Hartree House occupied part of the top floor of Whiteleys Department Store in Queensway London) really but it was great fun at Minerva Road because we could do things on the computer and nobody was sure whether it was the computer that was the problem or our coding that was the problem. And I do remember Diane Bray: Barry said he remembered running through saying ‘I've got a man, I've got a man’ because she was so excited . [Note: Diane Bray married John Lewis, who was pretty senior at the time.] 
[Margaret Fox] We spent ages not actually getting anywhere at all at the start, but it was all very good fun and everybody very friendly, and lots of inter-marriages after that. Then, after that I worked at Ilford Films, probably doing something payroll connected because I always did payroll. But it might have been something to do with the films. 
[John Daines] II/9 that was, yes.
[Margaret Fox] My main recollection is that I went from one end of the tube line to the other end to get to
Ilford and I read ‘Lord of the Rings’ all the time. All the way through because I'd get a seat at my end and I'd stay there and go right through, so that, I'm not sure I could have coped with it otherwise - not the job, with the book I
Diane Bray worked there, but I don't remember the other people. There were a couple of fairly young lads who’d come to LEO after me, but I don't remember their names at all. After that it was CAV, and I think it was the start of these compilers coming in. Was that on LEO III, on the CAV LEO III?
[John Daines] They did have a LEO III in Acton that had a compiler.
[Margaret Fox] Yes. It may have been there that I felt that something (the compiler) came between me and the computer. You know, I like to write in machine code so I knew if it went wrong it was me that had done it.
[John Daines] Yes, well if it was LEO III there would have been a ‘translator’, because you'd have written in intercode. 
[Margaret Fox] There would have been. I do remember when Barry started, he was asking me about knitting patterns when he was starting doing this design of CLEO I think. And he based it on knitting patterns, which are very similar, in that you have brackets and you do things outside the brackets. But I'm not sure many knitters would realise that it was done like that. 
[John Daines] That's interesting.
[Margaret Fox] I did go and work at Acton with CAV for quite a while because they had a canteen there. I can remember the things that are not related to the work a lot more than I could remember the work. Like going to Acton, and we lived at Ealing Common at that time, and it was only down the road on a bus journey. And it was a cold year, and the Routemaster buses had just came in and they all froze because it was too cold and nobody had realised that it might have frozen, so they didn't run. I'm not sure, whether it was the diesel that froze?
[John Daines] It could have been ’62/’63 perhaps?
[Margaret Fox] No, it was before that because we didn't l live there then. Our daughter Katie was born in ’62 and I had given up work. It would be the year before, but it was just a cold snap.] Not a long one like the later one. But I know I couldn't get through because the buses had frozen, everybody was amused by it. Yes, I worked both at CAV and at Hartree House afterwards, and I think it was about then that I got pregnant and decided to give up work - and have a baby instead. 
[John Daines] So you gave up work then and..
[Margaret Fox] I did a few hours work for McLeman, for Mac, we called him, George McLeman. He gave me some work to do at home. But, I think that was only while I was in Hayes, once I'd moved out of there I didn't do any other work.
[Margaret Fox] I did things, well, baby things. Playgroup and...
[John Daines] It must have been one of the very first homeworking...
[Margaret Fox] Well that, yes, and I didn't do many hours, and they paid me double of what they should have done I think, I think they paid me four pounds an hour. Which was cheap for them really, but not cheaper compared with if I'd been working there. I suppose I was a bit stunned by that. But it wasn't many hours at all, because I gave that up and decided to be a mum instead.
[John Daines] Did you go back after that?
[Margaret Fox] I didn't, no. I was sort of considering it because there were this group up here of women that used to work part-time. [Note: This refers to the part time programmers who worked around Kidsgrove: “up here” because they’d moved to Kidsgrove by then.]
[John Daines] Pregnant Programmers?
[Margaret Fox] Yes.
[John Daines] That's what they used to call them. Hilary Cropper’s Pregnant Programmers.
[Note : Dame Hilary Cropper 1941 - 2005, was according to her Guardian obituary ‘one of Britain's pre-
eminent businesswomen. She succeeded Dame Steve Shirley founder of F International as chairman and chief executive of computer services group Xansa, she blazed a trail for women in IT. From the outset, Xansa championed women in work by offering home-based and part-time employment to women with computing skills but childcare commitments. The real trailblazer was Steve, but Hilary was a worthy and successful successor’]
[Margaret Fox] I was, that's right. I think I was going to go for an interview but what put me off, was Barry; who said it would embarrass him because he was a union member and didn't like the way they were being paid at that time, and so he didn't really want me to do it. But anyway I decided I'd try teaching, mainly because of the holidays. So I went to Alsager, the teacher training college (Note: now part of Manchester Metropolitan University.) and did a PostGrad in education but then I got a job in a primary school and no way could I continue, it was just so stressful. I couldn't keep control of the class, I did a year but I didn't pass my probationary year, they extended it. But at that time, somebody at Foden’s [Note: This was Foden Trucks, which had a big factory in Sandbach, Cheshire, near their home in Congleton and close to Kidsgrove] decided they'd employ women as programmers who would be given a load of programming work and you'd do it at home and send it back when completed. It was cheap for them. So they had quite a lot of people and they’d pay us by the hour. My next door neighbour did it as well, but we both felt that they hadn't really got enough work and so we would spend some time doing it and not return it immediately. We didn't think there was any hurry. But then they got rid of most of us. But I do remember going in there and seeing the computer and I couldn't believe it, you know, having seen all these great, long rooms full of computer, and there was just this litt le cabinet. I thought, ‘that can't be it’. That would be ‘79/’80, that sort of time 
[John Daines] By this time, they would have been transistorised machines? And what sort of languages were you writing in at Foden’s?
[Margaret Fox] I don't know what it w as, we just had little bits. It would only be little bits of programmes, we weren't writing anything, it was looking for the errors and things, or just tiny, little modules.
[John Daines] Like ‘Desk Checking’?
[Margaret Fox] Not only checking. I think we used to have to write things as well because I did find an error in it but they weren't interested in this error. It was some logical error ...in the bit that I was looking at but they didn't care about that so, so I don't know what they used it for. And it was only very small.
[John Daines] So was that the end of your computing?
[Margaret Fox] That was the end. I decided I'd go on a secretarial course. So I went to Macclesfield on a course. And then I worked for an agency, one of these secretarial agencies doing odd things. But I was no good at shorthand – I was hopeless; I could write in long hand probably as fast as I could shorthand. But then one of the places that tended to employ people from agencies as they still do was the National Health Service as nurses and clerical assistants, and I got a job, only briefly, at Parkside Hospital.
[John Daines] The mental hospital in Macclesfield.
[Margaret Fox] Beautiful grounds it had there, it was really quite a nice place to work. I was doing patient’s pay. The patients would come and get sort of pocket money. But that didn't last for long and I went and got another job there in the laundry office. Now the manager had just bought a computer, a personal computers - just a little one and some computer firm was supposed to be putting his laundry computer applications on to it and getting it all working. Including the use of SuperCalc. [Note: This was a spreadsheet like Excel]. When I got there all my programme experience came back and so I ended up using it so that it would all go automatically and print out the results.. So I did all that and I quite enjoyed doing that. It was much better than my previous work there doing clerical thing. I started working from the agency, but then the manager employed me directly. But once that had been done there really wasn't any sort of work suitable for me. After that the laundry was going out to tender, and the manager wanted me to work on that as well. But then he applied for a different job and went to work in Ipswich, so I lost my mentor. And then, of course, they sold off the laundry, it was all changing. It was quite, quite depressing because patients were getting so that they could do less and less because there were rules that they couldn't do things. They knocked the building down. The hall, a listed building, was set fire to, listed building but it was all dodgy, and then they built on that. I got a job down at the main hospital then, but that was just inputting data. It was a drop in salary but I had got a little bit fed up with the little laundry business. But I did manage to do a little bit of programming for somebody who was doing the welfare health things; But since I was supposed to be working for School House IT, my boss said I couldn't do that anymore, so I had to stop that as well. So I just carried on and then when I came to sixty I retired, but I kept up the job part time because I liked cycling to Macclesfield every day. And so it was that, that kept me going. They had flexi hours and I didn't approve of my boss very much because, with the flexi hours she insisted I got there at ten, which was not good time to cycle because people were going to school at the time I went. Whereas the laundry boss hadn't bothered, as long as I put in the time, he didn't care how much time I spent there. So I got a bit disgruntled with that as well. But then, that was it: I fully retired. I did all sorts of things once I'd retired, I had a go at lots of things. I was doing reading for people who couldn't read, adult reading, and I had to go on a course for that at Crewe. Again I cycled to Crewe quite often. But, my daughter had moved to America and I went over there when she was having a baby and I never went back on that course, because it ended up that I'd had to do quite a difficult exam and do lots of stuff and produce things and that wasn't what I wanted, I just wanted to deal with people. So I stopped doing that as well. I also went down to the school and listened to readers, various little things like that. But then I found U3A when that came up and that takes up nearly all my time now. I teach line dancing now. I went on lots of different things with U3A in the first place, music appreciation - and it has grown enormously in Congleton now and I do all sorts of different things. But, that's been my main activity I suppose since...
[John Daines] Right. So working with LEO in the early days.
[Margaret Fox] Well that was great fun. I really enjoyed that.
[John Daines] I suppose we’re coming towards the end really, what were the key things that you got out of LEO, your key memories? Was it the people or the work or, or...
[Margaret Fox] I think probably the people, and the work was enjoyable too. It's very satisfying to get something to
work. When I think of Glyn Mills: we spent such a long time coding that, and then somebody had to check it all. So everything was written and checked before you ever got to the computer. But then getting it to work on the computer. And I do remember I had these cards that we used to fill in the digits and copy the card - you weren't supposed to do it but we did. [Note: This refers to filling a hole in the card with a “chad” when amending it.]
[John Daines] You did that...
[Margaret Fox] Of course, it was a young crowd as well, wasn't it? They were all sort of similar age group. Some of those we've still kept in contact like Kate who worked on LEO I as well, Kate Keen, she’d worked on LEO I. And then on LEO II.
[John Daines] I think someone is going to interview Kate.
[Margaret Fox] Yes, she came up here, they used a boat, they shared a boat with somebody and they came along the Macclesfield Canal.
[John Daines] She got married, didn't she?
[Margaret Fox] Yes, she's Kate Fisher now. She got married quite a while after we did. But we still send Christmas cards, and of course Jenny McLennan as well, that I was at college with. We kept in contact with her. She lived in Hayes when we moved up to Hayes. But then, I think, Mac left the company, I mean Jenny left as well when she got married but... I think she teaches now, or did, probably has retired now.
[John Daines] Well thank you very much Margaret.
[Margaret Fox] But I've not mentioned all my running. ICL used to have a lot of runners and they did the...
[Barry Fox] Including Alan Walker.
[John Daines] Did you do the ‘Killer Mile’?
[Margaret Fox] Yes, I did. I did that a few times. I got my age group record for that until somebody younger than me who was much faster came and took it. They also had an inter-departmental race and I managed to get myself in that. it was partly that, that started me running.
[John Daines] Thank you very much. This interview with Margaret Fox has been recorded by the LEO Computer Society and the Society would like to thank Margaret very much for her time and reminiscences. The interview and the transcript form part of an Oral History Project to document the early use of electronic computers in business and other applications, but particularly in business. Any opinions expressed are those of the interviewee, that is Margaret, and not of the Society. The copyright of this interview in recorded form and in transcript remains the property of the LEO Computer Society 2017. Thank you very much.
[End]

Provenance :
Recording made by the LEO Computers Society as part of their ongoing oral history project.

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